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I will not re-open the original thread because I respect BavarianWheels
I saw no harm since this was posted in off topic. Although not as
exciting, it had more thought then seeing a forum member model her
underwear in post your pics. This may have offended one or two more
religious members but they were tolerant. When moderating that thread, I
tried to respect peoples rights but had to rein the in discussion when we
were starting to cross the line between attractive/sexy pictures vs the
accepted definition of pornography (and requiring U.S. mandated legal
records be kept on the person in the picture).
I may have been the instigator here in the discussion but did not see harm
in helping ChrisKnows understand the motivation for folks placing Bible
tracs in cars. The discussion took a new turn but a good one. I saw no
harm in 97Talonchik linking people to examples of the tracs so the forum
could follow the discussion
Although probably not intentional ,one good thing this discussion did was
to bring out differences in the culture in the Southern US Bible Belt
(rural mid-west, Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi,
and surrounding areas.)
You folks are great and I appreciate us tolerating each other and trying to
understand each other.
tbaxleyjr
It is interesting to see the differences between the bible belt and the
Northeast. We rarely get people going door-to-door to convert others. I'm
friends with some regular Christians (I'm Catholic) and they often try to
get me to go to their mass. After one time, I politely decline, explaining
that I'm already dodging my own church.:mrgreen: After a few offers I start
to get mad, because to me it is as if somebody is constantly telling my
beliefs are wrong and that theirs are right. Let's be honest, there are
very subtle differences between Catholics and regular Christians. Further,
it seems Catholicism does everything they do and then some. I'm not sure
of my beliefs, but I am sure that a rapist who forms a relationship with
Jesus gets into heaven while a genuinely good person who has no
relationship with Jesus goes to hell/purgatory doesn't sound right to me.
Seems like it's based less on merit and more on Jesus letting his buddies
in.
On the other hand, if you're being good just to get into heaven, I believe
you've missed something.
giant016
Accepting Jesus does not mean you get a free pass into heaven regardless of
your sins however, it does open the door to salvation. If your a follower
or not and weather you've accepted Christ or not, your actions have
consequences. You still have to pay for what you have done. Accepting
Christ means that you realize that you have been wayward and that you want
to change things.
speeder
Appreciated.
I don't mean to say religion can't be discussed, but that when it becomes a
thread to bash religion in a nasty way, then the thread gets closed.
As long as people remain civil and respectful of each other's beliefs in
regard to religion, I'm all for allowing this "off topic" topic.
.
.
BavarianWheels
I'm also a catholic and I am pretty tolerant when it comes to religion.
(Dont get me started on politics though:orglaugh: )
I've never really lived anywhere where there were any catholic churches and
my parents quit going to church but I wanted to keep going so I went with
friends, I went to baptist churches, family restoration and all kinds of
them. I figured some church was better than nothing.
Well boy was I wrong, Ive never been given so much grief.
I even went to a church camp with my buddy in middle school and as I pull
in I see "Baptist Encampment" and I say OH SHIT.
The people I went with were very understanding and never mentioned me being
catholic but a lady I sat next to at the tabernakle saw my bible and asked
if it was a catholic bible, I told her I didnt know there was a difference
but probably because Im a Catholic and she flipped and told me I needed to
go to the altar to repint and convert so I woulndt go to hell.
They had a little problem on their hands after she said that to me.
I dont have anything against baptists just telling a story about a bitch
who just happened to be baptist.
Enthusiast
I play basketball at a Cavalry Christian church, and they pretty much told
me that if you accept Jesus you're in. I guess they're different from the
general Christians.
giant016
CF's Most Controversial Member
chris_knows
traditionally, The Southern US has been predominately evangelical (Southern
Baptist, Pentecostal, etc), Much of the Midwest is predominately Lutheran
or Roman Catholic, Much of the Northeast is Roman Catholic or Jewish while
much of the Great LAkes as well as the South Western US is predominately
Roman catholic. Much of this is due to the traditions in the homelands of
the folks who settled in those areas.
I am not too fond of religion bashing either because no denomination
corners the market on heaven and eventually when we meet God at our death,
(most all Faiths have this commonality), I seriously doubt the first
question asked is are you Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, etc.? I seriously
think the first question is whom do you place your faith regardless of the
denomination and how you treated people on earth while you were there.
Although I attend a Southern Baptist Church, I think a persons faith,
whatever brand, is evidenced/reflected in their attitude towards life and
how they respect and treat people.
I am embarrassed when a person of another Christian faith is told to repent
just because they are Catholic or Orthodox.
A Note about the Bible - Just about all Christians believe there are 66
books in both the Old and New Testament which are inspired by God. There
are several other books such as 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch,
Judith and Tobit which some Christians believe are God inspired and others
believe they are true but maybe not God inspired. Many arguments, fights,
wars and discussions have occurred since about 500 AD about these books and
I suspect there will be continued arguments. To the shame of the lady who
told Enthusiast his Bible was wrong did not completely understand and
probably needs to do some research and learn something about history.
tbaxleyjr
Again, its interesting how regional differences and culture impact beliefs
tbaxleyjr
Not a problem here... we're ranked 5th in the world for being unGodly,
behind Russia, France, Germany and the UK . I'd like to know who those six
people are that stopped us from getting first place and send them back to
Iran.:mrgreen:
Wally
who knows?
tbaxleyjr
:clap:
I agree with the vast majority of that. Personally I don't believe it
matters who (if anybody) you place your faith in. As you said, your
religion is based largely on where you live and your upbringing. If you
were born/raised in India you would probably have a different God. To me
it boils down to a bunch of religions saying ours is the one true religion
with 0 evidence to back it up, and sometimes even threatening eternal
damnation becuase you don't see it there way.
And for the record I was also told my bible was wrong. Don't quote me, but
I believe they were trying to tell me that the King James bible was the
only one not tainted.
giant016
I believe God exists so that we have a sense of moral standards, so that we
have a reason for life rather than to simply live, procreate and die.
Without morals, we are savages. Without standards, we have chaos. I further
find it morally offensive for anyone to say their religion is the only true
religion. Religion today preaches hatred (in my belief) not the love and
solidarity that it was intended to teach. Why scare people into a belief?
Whether it be Yahweh, God, The Holy Trinity, or Allah, they are all the
belief in something greater than oneself that coexists with humanity to
create morality and sensibility in an otherwise chaotic world. I do not
believe in a specific religion, I believe in religion in itself. I believe
that I can only live my life to the best of my ability and try to abide by
things I would consider substantially and morally fulfilling. Though I may
waver, it is the existence of free will and faith that allows me to find my
way back. Not the fear of going to heaven or hell.
In essence, religion's foundation is the belief in following the golden
rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". All the rest is
glitz and glam.
97Talonchik
Just yesterday my boss was asking me about my religion. She is Catholic,
and I am a rather strict protestant, people often think we are Mormon or
Amish or similar. Just trying to answer some of her questions and explain
some of our beliefs I realized that we have a vastly different view of
religion. Even though we are both Christian and have the same fundemental
beliefs (death in Adam, life in Christ) our whole view and approach is
completly different. If anyone wants, I could try to explain some of the
intricacies of our religion, but it is hard to do unless there are specific
questions to answer.
We believe that our religion is the only true religion. We believe that
there is no hope for catholics, or other religions. In fact we tend to view
the pope as an anti-christ. That being said, we don't hate people from
other religions. I think a classmate said it well a few years ago. She,
being an irish catholic, and I a protestant, were talking to another person
about how in ireland there were great religious battles between the
protestants and the catholics. when asked how we could still get along as
people, she replied that we dont hate each other, we each just disagree
with the others religion. We look at people as people, not as religions. As
a nurse, I don't refuse to care for a person of another religion, nor do I
preach to them. If someone asks, I can do my best to explain my views to
them, but I don't go knocking on doors telling people to repent. We tend to
believe in more of a passive preaching, we let our actions do our preaching
for us.
We believe that the King James version of the Bible is the only reliable
translation of the Bible. We believe that removing the thees and thous from
the Bible removes some of the substance of the Bible, and also removes some
of the nature of respect. In prayer we never use you in reference to God,
but rather use Thee or Thou, it gives a feeling of respect and formality.
dvdrose18
Well I see I got the other thread locked over some light hearted
humor.:doh:
Spanky2324
If it was you, and frankly I don't remember who it was, it was not
light-hearted at all. In fact, that will not be tolerated.
Thread going well so far...don't need "humor" of that nature.
.
.
BavarianWheels
What was the joke?
chris_knows
But are rules really morals? I've pondered morality a bit, and to be
honest religion seems lose a little ground everyday. Yes, I'll say the
world is a better place overall with the weak people mindlessly following
the Bible/other religions. And I DON'T MEAN all that follow the book are
weak, but there are plenty of people that would gladly follow a book rather
than actually think. That is not morality to me at all. In fact, once
religion comes into the picture I usually consider any and every "good"
action amoral.
Also, I'd bet the farm that without religion the world would not fall into
chaos, if anything looking at the last few thousands of years religion has
caused more chaos than prevented. I find it belittling to the human race
to say that we couldn't be civil without religion.
Overall I'll agree with you, the golden rule is pretty solid, as long as
you don't take it too literally if you're a masochist.:mrgreen:
giant016
See I had a Kings James Bible and she was still bitchin at me.
Part of me seriously wanted to light her on fire cause I can have a pretty
short fuse on some things, I pretty much just gave her a few select words
(not curse words surprisingly) to ponder on. I
Enthusiast
The catholics might know about World Youth Day currently in Sydney. The
pope guy is here and decided to celebrate the World Ute Day as well:
Wally
I'm not saying religion is what keeps people sane (because case and point:
Tammy Faye Baker), I'm saying religion was brought about to try and enact
certain actions upon a group of people (whether it be malicious or not).
I absolutely agree with your stance on religion causing chaos. Take a look
at the Crusades, or the Holocaust, or even what is going around us here
today (i.e. Barack Obama's so called "roots" in the Muslim religion must
make him a terrorist and bad guy). I think more what I was trying to say
that the belief that there is a higher power might make people want to be
better people who abide by standards such as "love thy neighbor", "don't
kill", "don't cheat". I don't consider these religious standards, rather I
consider them a good way to live. And just WOW to your masochism
comment...:laughing:
I don't consider myself a religious person, as I don't attend church, nor
do I pray or ask for forgiveness for my sins. I do try to do what is right,
without embarrassing myself or my family. That is what I consider moral and
virtuous. Not that if I do this, this and this...I'll get to sit on a
bigger throne in heaven (oh yes, they preach this) or my crown will be
bigger based on my actions, or my palace will be a certain type depending
on my deeds. I was raised Catholic...(CONFUSING!!!) and later "repented"
because they scared the crap out of me and went to a Southern Baptist
church. I stopped going to organized religious events because I was
appalled by the actions of these people who considered themselves pillars
of the religious community.
From what I've seen in my short life, it seems those who preach the
hardest, usually sin the most. You can count me out of all that mess. I'll
be happy in my own personal relationship with God, Allah, Yahweh,
Zeus...whatever is there, without going to an organized religion. People
tend to skew things into what they want them to say, like certain passages
in the Bible. Others want to believe some things in the Bible, but
completely ignore others (i.e. that's Old Testament and doesn't
count)...but then you mention the 10 commandments, which also were Old
Testament and those are cool...but let's go to Iraq and do what? That's
right, kill millions of people. Why? Because that's what good Christian
soldiers do. Nevermind that "thou shall not kill" thing. It doesn't apply
to religious war. :banghead:
97Talonchik
You hit the nail right on the head.
Religion for the sake of religion is worthless. Regardless of faith,
people not living a lifestyle which reflect the beliefs or value system, is
what turns away from religions.
97Talonchik - Your examples and comments are good - let me add a few
more
Locally in Chattanooga, about the early 1990s there was a youth minister in
a local church (a very conservative one at that) spent time in the State
Prison for molesting kids, there was a music minister asked to leave a
church since he fathered a child - either with someone besides his wife or
out of wedlock. I knew a minister in another location who was caught
dipping into the church finances for personal gain, another one who had an
affair. I know deacons in Baptist churches whom have either had kids with
other folks besides his wife. I have seen so much political posturing and
positioning in church that one would think you were in a typical American
corporation. The funny thing about this is each of these incidences
involve Baptists or Baptist churches either in Chattanooga or the Knoxville
TN area. Through the past few years many Baptists have become more and
more fundamental in taking the Bible literally word for word as opposed to
reading it as a whole book, understanding the historical context, and
learning the message it has for us today when seen in the context of the
day it was written. Note the Bible ( the RSV or New American Bible many
English speaking Catholics nor does the King James, NIV, New American
Standard or the Non Catholic version of the RSV most of the others of us
use) has something to say against having affairs, killing people, stealing,
dishonesty, wife beating, child molestation/child abuse and a host of other
issues.
The reason churches are not surviving is many people in them do not
practice decent life styles and treat people with dignity and respect -
others make observations and ask what is really different then the outside
world. Unfortunately, the answer has to speak for itself.
When I talk about this subject with my daughters, I have always told them
to read the Bible from front to back, study the history and culture during
the time periods and understand the world history, then form your beliefs
based on what the Bible says and its message in its total context. I never
want my daughters to blindly believe in anyone's dogma about faith,
politics, or anything else without doing serious research and learning
something about it first.
In any endeavor, taking scripture or anything else out of context to build
beliefs or sell a political platform is dangerous. Always do the homework
before forming beliefs and values what ever you do.
People seem to forget Christianity (I can speak a little more accurately
about this than I can about Islam or other beliefs) is about the personal
relationship with God - not about following a book of rules. If the
relationship is in order, church or no church, the morals, lifestyle,
respect for people, etc) will usually sort itself out.
tbaxleyjr
Religion can be just as dangerous as atheism. If a person is truly
Christian, they wouldn't do immoral things. Also, in the 20th century, some
of the worst people were atheists. Mao Zedong, Lenin, Stalin, Mussolini,
Hitler (I'm pretty sure). That's not saying atheism is bad, but you would
have strife either way.
chris_knows
Actually, Hitler was a Christian (Roman Catholic) with a worldly view of
the beliefs in the bible and Christianity, which in turn lead to his skewed
belief that he had to rid all those who did not believe in the Christian
God. He firmly believed he was mandated by God to eradicate all
non-believers. This was part of his ability to win over so many people to
the Nazi beliefs.
97Talonchik
No way Hitler was a Christian. He denounced it frequently and his actions
backed that up. The belief system he had was superiority of the
Anglo/Germanic races.
Wally
People will debate the fact of his beliefs. He was not always of the belief
that the superior race were those of pure Anglo Germanic lineage. He didn't
reach that belief until he was around 20 years of age when he encountered a
man who spoke of the Nazi beliefs in a bar after the death of his father
and mother. He was a very troubled young man, susceptible to just about any
idea that would make he feel like he belonged.
He frequently spoke of God's will and his plan for him. I know many a
Christian who's moral standards are far below those you would consider of
someone who should be a Christian Soldier, yet they still consider
themselves Christians. We may not want to believe that someone who truly
believed in God could do such heinous things, yet they do. Again, that goes
back to free will.
Of course there will be those who will fight the fact, as it looks bad on
Christianity itself. I personally have unsettling thoughts of my own
religion and actions of some of the people therein, does that make me not a
Christian as well? You can read "Mein Kampf" (My Struggle) which was
written by Adolf while he was in prison following the end of WWI in which
he speaks frequently throughout of his beliefs.
97Talonchik
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
One can not deny Hitler misused Christianity for his political gains. and
to a certain extent, the some of the religious groups were involved in it
on the surface helped/legitimized Hitler's actions. The thing we need to
understand is the motivations
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7337748.stm
This site from Rutgers University has some Declassified documents shedding
some light on our U.S. Government's "spooks' analysis of the Nazi and
church situation in World War 2.
http://www.lawandreligion.com/nurinst1.shtml
I hope historians who are qualified to use the archives @ the Vatican can
help gain some understanding of the motivations behind some of the actions.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5356862.stm
Eventually, though bad times in history, man/woman kind still has to have
some hope that things will differ and be better in the future.
tbaxleyjr
I'm a hell of a lot more scared of a person who's fighting for their
relgion than a person fighting for power. I also feel that if religion
didn't exist, those figting for power wouldn't be threatend by the power
religion has, especially in the old days. A battle for power only lasts as
long as a dictator. Look at the struggle in the middle east. IIRC in the
Jewish faith the world will only be complete when the third temple is built
on th past sites of the first two, in Israel. However, at that very spot
is one of the most prolific Muslim Shrines. Something like that will be
fought until one side simply is no more; nobody is going to make a
compromise. Dictators come and go in relatively the blink of an eye IMHO,
and it is a lot easier to motivate people to do something for God than for
their earthly ruler.:2cents:
giant016
It's really a shame that someone who probably means well is so terribly
misguided and blind to the facts because they don't support her opinion.
1. Millions of people HAVE NOT been killed in Iraq during this
conflict/war. Sorry, hate to burst your bubble and open your eyes little
girl, but even the most far left "news" organizations can't get the total
number od deaths including coalition forces and contractors much over
100,000.
2. Coalition forces, which are mostly American forces, are NOT "Christain
soldiers" and this is NOT a religious war. Once again, facts that don't
support your opinion. Sorry. You can point your whiney liberal finger at
a lot of things as the reason that we're there, but religion isn't one of
them.
I suggest that next time before you make statements as you did above, you
do some fact checking. It might keep you from looking stupid. But I
wouldn't count on it.
P.S. If you really hate your country as much as it seems from the tone of
your post, I suggest you get on a plane and move to Iran or North Korea.
I'll even pay for your ticket. I'm sure you'll have the freedom you enjoy
in the USA that allows you to post the drivel that you do without fear of
imprisonment or death. Think about it.
vwhobo
Rather than ignore you, I'll explain my posting (and risk this thread which
is something actually going on on this forum getting locked yet again
because I know you'll start flaming):
I'm not saying the soldiers who are over there are fighting a religious
war, I'm saying the Christian organizations in America take this war as a
fight against the "Muslim terrorists" and more often than not believe the
war is a good thing, (i.e. "Christian Soldiers" not actual soldiers). These
same Christians who claim to be pure in heart and "bible abiding" are okay
with the fact that people are being murdered and believe this war is a good
thing. I am in no way attacking the American Armed Forces so get your
panties out a bind. I love America. I am afforded the freedom to express my
opinion, just as you have the freedom to express yours. I firmly do believe
this is a religious war, whether anyone else does or not. This is my
opinion, not one formed by Fox News or any other media outlet. I don't
watch that crap. For the record, I am not a Liberal. :thumbs:
97Talonchik
Are these the same Christian groups that elected the bloke who said
this.
"There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in
Tennessee -- that says, fool me once, shame on --shame on you. Fool me --
you can't get fooled again."
and
"You know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war
on terror."
:laughing:
Wally
Well, in fact you did ignore me... Or at least half of what I said. You
ignored the fact that millions of people have not been killed in Iraq since
the beginning of the conflict/war. But then I'm sure it would have been
inconvenient for you to face the facts because they don't support your
opinion. And on your accusation that I'll start flaming, you of course are
entirely wrong. Don't make the mistake of stating your opinion as fact
again.
You’re basing your entire argument on what? Your opinion? How does anyone
make a coherent case against that? I served 23 years of my life so that
people like you who are obviously uneducated on the subject can espouse
your opinion, no matter how ignorant or devoid of fact it is, and not have
to worry about the thought police (except those on this forum) won't come
knocking on your door and take you away in the middle of the night.
I am retired military, my wife is active duty military and many of my
acquaintances and customers fit into both of those categories as well.
Additionally, although I don't have religion myself, living in the Bible
belt the vast majority of people I know do. I don't personally know
ANYBODY that thinks this war is a good thing and I bet neither do you.
Neccessary? Yep. Important? You betcha. Unfortunate? Of course. Good?
You’re out of your mind. War, and all the terrible things that go with it
is never ever good, and if you had even a shred of intellectual honesty
you’d know that.
So you go right along living in your fantasy world thinking this is a
religious war and that Christians think it’s good that we’re there. You go
right ahead and continue spreading lies about others based solely on your
opinion. You already have no credibility here based on this thread alone,
so why stop now?.
And for the record, if you're not a liberal, based on your posts in this
thread and your inability to deal in facts, you're the next closest thing.
Have a nice day.
vwhobo
just to add my :2cents:
I have never myself heard that christians think of this war as a way of
destroying muslim teritories, but anything is possible, all religions have
there extremists. And for every "christian" that does think this way, there
is a "christian" that views this war as God's punnishment to America for it
abortions, and another that thinks that there should never be war of any
kind.
Among my church, the general opinion is that all war is a necessary evil,
the result of the fallen nature of the human race. As we speak, my cousin
is training for another tour of duty in Iraq. We view the Iraq war as a
response to the threat to our safety here in America. But to say Christians
think this war is good because we are fighting Muslims is asinine. Sure, it
is a good thing for my safety that we are fighting extremists there rather
than here, but war in itself is never good.
As a side note, the sword does not convert people to a different religion,
it just makes them try to fit in to survive.
dvdrose18
I base my opinion on what I've seen around me. Whether you believe that to
be fantasy or fact is your opinion. I don't say things because they are the
popular voicing of the group and (as I said previously) I've never been one
to step down from my stance or views because people think I'm barking up
the wrong tree. I'm entitled to believe as I wish to believe, like it or
not, just as I respect your beliefs, like them or not. I don't go around
calling people idiots, morons, uneducated, liberal (used as a derogatory
term), a liar or anything of the like because they disagree with my stance
on things or say things I wholeheartedly disagree with.
Regarding the "millions" comment, how do you know it hasn't been millions?
You did not include those on the opposition in your numbers. I'm not simply
speaking of Americans and their allies (plus contractors). I'm speaking of
the people they fight over there as well as the civilians who also are
affected by war. It may very well be millions. Unfortunately, no one seems
to care about counting the Iraqi deaths/civilians. It looks like one group
started around 2005 (stating 42000+ since 2005 documented deaths), but that
number doesn't include the massive raid in 2003, which likely killed many
people nor the missing.
97Talonchik
As I said, uneducated. Worse, instead of attempting to enlighten yourself
on the subject, you prefer to remain ignorant of the facts. There are
perhaps hundreds of websites available that have body count numbers for
Iraq... All it takes is a modicum of intellectual curiosity and two
minutes on Yahoo to find them. And as I stated previously, even the most
far left, anti-war of them can't put the number much above 100k. If the
Daily Kos, moveon.org and sites of their ilk can't come close to justifying
seven digit numbers, how can you?
Oh, that's right, I forgot. It's your opinion.
Here, I'll make this incredibly easy for you. That way you don't need to
take any responsibility for your actions. Look here for what is an almost
universally accepted number. http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ The only place
I can find a number even close to what you're quoting is here.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6998458.stm Of course, that's not
based on hard numbers or fact... It's based on a survey of what people
think the number is. Maybe you participated.
Have a nice day.
P.S. One last thing. I didn't call you uneducated, which is another fact
that you'll no doubt be unable to accept. I very specifically said you
were uneducated about the subject. Try reading, and comprehending, all of
the words one time.
vwhobo
The swastika was derived from a catholic symbol.
Enthusiast
Try Hindu.
Wally
Hilter first saw a "swastika" in a catholic church as a boy.
Its called a hooked cross or twisted cross, and its a cross thats twisted,
looks just like a swastika but the angles on the hooks arent 90 degrees the
are about 45.
I did alot of research on the subject in middle school in GT but its hard
to find information on it now, Ill try and find soemthing.
Enthusiast
I don't know for sure about Hitler seeing the swastika in church or not but
can say it is Hindu in origin
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4183467.stm
tbaxleyjr
Yah I know there is a hindu swastika but I remeber distinclty reading about
a symbol that used to be used in catholic churches that resembled the
swastika and it had symbols or letters at the end of each arm.
Then about a year ago I saw something about it on the discovery or history
channel.
Enthusiast
I am not doubting you - I cant seem to find what I am looking for to back
up if Hitler saw a swastika in church or not - This is a controversial
topic and don't want to spout off rubbish
tbaxleyjr
I think you'll find the Nazi party adopted it for the same reason we were
taught in the sixties = it was used as a tag by Austrian Aryan anti Jew
groups before WWI. You have to understand that the Austro-Hungarian Empire
was the big boy on the eastern European block pre WW1 (a legacy of the
Napoleonic wars). Countries in that empire included... you guessed it
Germany and Italy. So while it seems inconceivable that the country that
begat Maria and Captain Von Trapp could be the nursery of facsism, the
nazis and their swastika it is actually true.
This may not fit with revisionist historians, but there you go.
Wally
